Soldiers Use Game Skills to Master Remote Guns
Strategy Page columnist James Dunnigan says that CROWS (Common Remotely Operated Weapons Systems) -- which are big guns manned remotely by someone inside an armored vehicle with a joystick and live cam -- have proved highly successful in Iraq because the soldiers operating them grew up playing (presumably first-person shooter) VIDEO GAMES. Experienced gamers have no difficulty gaining total situational awareness and whipping around the video camera on the guns, spotting hints of trouble and blasting anything that moves. CROWS is one of several "weapons for the Nintendo generation," according to the Dallas Morning News. The military is even using the Pentagon's game, "America's Army," to train CROWS gunners. The guns were first deployed in Iraq in January, 2005. Here comes the VIDEO!
8:33 AM * PERMALINK * 57 comments
Comments:
does anyone else find this disturbing?
too bad the limey pongo's dont know how to use something similar
i want one
Duh.
Any gamer could have told you this would work well.
What's with the joystick being right in front of the screen? I think I'd prefer it offset to the right. Well... perhaps it's to accomodate lefties, too.
Either way... Wait until they develop a system that can respond to twitch movement. Then look for the joystick to be replaced by a mouse making this truly like the FPS games we allk now and love.
Aliens extended cut. Sentry Guns. America might have a corrupt govt, but man do they know a good toy when they see one.
Very worrying. With the increase of RPVs/Drones/armed robots etc Skynet gets a bit closer with each passing year... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skynet)
I'm half joking.. but half not.
The U.S. Navy has had something like this for quite some time, the Phalanx CIWS system. Intended for automatic operation (to shoot down incoming missiles) but it has manually operated modes too.
This just exacerbates the problem of being too far removed from the people you are fighting to be effective.
What would happen when you blast away with one of these? You'd probably miss the insurgent who has already left the scene and you'd end up killing some innocent people. Then you've got more people who hate you and want revenge.
as soon as they make one with a PS control pad i'm getting one!
Nice hygenic killing & maiming.
Another great leap forward to insulate the kill-em-all fanboys from their actions.
My God! Jack Thompson is going to latch onto this like a leech on a water buffalo's ass.
hinding behind technology, cowards
this is very cowardly. we should require redcoats with brass buttons and face to face engagement only.
Okay! So when do I get my mech?
...I'm kidding.
"Nice hygenic killing & maiming.
Another great leap forward to insulate the kill-em-all fanboys from their actions."
"hinding behind technology, cowards"
"this is very cowardly. we should require redcoats with brass buttons and face to face engagement only."
All this is impractical and irrelevant, first because our enemies would not do this; rather, since they hide amongst civilians, they would just wreak havoc on the population far away from us, and be able to beat the scene as soon as they saw red coats. No, the period of "conventional" warfare is past. The time has come for these.
Honor and bravery mean nothing to those who willingly attack civilians just to reach military targets. The time for either of those is when rescuing someone from danger, not when fighting against religious would-be tyrants that live amongst the civilian population.
is there any possibility of LAG? ... Game stats and a mod to play "BOOM HEADSHOT" when appropriate would most encouraging.
what'd be cool is if they had in-game cinematics!
I propose a federal law to require one of these on the border with mexico every 40 yards. Control access should be open to the interenet.
Illegal immigration solved.
Yes, this is disturbing.
Why? Because the video quality is so poor you don't know what the hell you're aiming at, civilian or combatant.
Secondly the videogame-esque nature of the task can only lead to dehumanising of the enemy. This dehumanisation is what led to everyday people and soldiers in Germany presiding over concentration camps.
a Trackball would be much better than a joystick :P
Yeah, hearts and minds people, hearts and minds
what No XBOX controller?????WTF.
Being in the Military, first and foremost I must tell all you that were being so negative to shut up. This will save American lives, the very lives that are sacrificed for you to give you the right to complain freely without threat of censorship.
That, and I want one!
I have been saying this for years. since i first played goldeneye. "why not make a gun/robot thing that people can control that look like video games? that way, they can snipe from afar too" like if you made a gun and camera output like halo2, you'd have so many fucking kids pwning iraqi noobs
What I'd really like is a master server list like Half-Life where I can log in, pick an area and help make the world a better place from the comfort of my room.
It's not cowardly, it's modern warfare. And it's not even that modern. How do you think rebel Americans defeated the British? They got slaughtered standing in lines like idiots, so they adopted guerilla tactics.
This is what insurgents in Iraq have resorted to. To counter it, it's what the US has done back to them.
Innocents killed? Unlikely, this thing no doubt has some killer optics with infrared vision making it easy to identify a weapon weilding enemy. And cowardly? I dont know about you, but the last thing i want it a fair fight. We shall prevail with the odds greatly stacked in our favor. Gotta love you anti-americans, and your nonsensical slander. Semper Fi Marines!
They said the same thing about crossbows back in the day. You can't stop progress.
Read Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card.
Beach Head Rules...
typically american to find new ways to kill people. No wonder america is hated. How about gaining peoples respect and getting them to like you for a change?
Americans have the bad habit of seeing threats everywhere and for this reason they create these machines to kill people.
You want one? Cool, get one. Then imagine yourself pointing it at your family and shooting.
You say it\'s useful to save american lives in Iraq? Ok, but what are you doing in Iraq anyway? Did they attack you? Or do you smell oil?
God save America, \'cause they really need it.
Well, given enough tech, you could basically have these full drones guided from command centers...
As long as you're close enough and don't go thru many hops, lag isn't an issue.
Nothing like a "good" war to test new tech, life has no value in it. Wake up.
Poor Iraqis have no chance against american technology - but I do beleive what ever you dish out today will be returned 10 fold...
I do hope it shouts out "pwnd!1!!1111" when you hit something
Really nice, I hope the joystick has Force Feedback capability to increase realism while shooting real people.
"spotting hints of trouble and blasting anything that moves" Nothing like a little bloodlust to mantain your image unchanged to the whole world.
and please:
"The time for either of those is when rescuing someone from danger, not when fighting against religious would-be tyrants that live amongst the civilian population."
C'mon, even you guys now that the "USA saves the world again" costume has fallen.
slap some treads on it (or legs and arms) and you've got yourself a gundam :)
intereting.
The 'is this a just war' argument doesn't really belong here. Once it is decided to go to war, then you look at military solutions. And this is a good one. Less danger for the 'operator' so less likely to panic and make mistakes. Idealy the operator is somewhere else entirely, removing the stress of war completely. And their actions can be reviewed (I assume it is all recorded) and there is no 'I was in fear of my life' cause/defence for mistakes.
You know, I was playing half-life one day, and I really tried to get along with other players. I REALLY tried HARD! But they just kept killing me! But I can say with some certainty that they really really liked me before they stiched accross my chest with a machine gun and then blew up my corpse with a satchel charge.
I'm currently serving in theatre over here in Iraq. These things save lives. These guns allow for the gunner to sit inside of the vehicle. I can see how this is a very good thing. The gunners usually are vulernable to rollovers and IED attacks because of where and how they sit in the vehicles. Even though the vehicles may be armored, IEDs still have shrapnel which can be fatal to a soldier's life. This is a very good thing... VERY GOOD! TRUST ME!
Another great thing is that when you (the remote) die, you get another life AND you transfer all you previous experience to it. It's pretty hard for the enemy to maintain an ambush when the dead victims gather some friends, then come back and kill the assailant.
"Spotting hints of trouble and blasting anything that moves" says the article. Excellent. After all, Iraqi's aren't American, so they don't count, right?
There would be ways around it. There would have to be a way to sever the link between the guns and the operators.
But what do you do if a civilian approaches your gun? Do you blast them? Enemies could disguise themselves as civilians and disable the guns.
Although this is not a problem if you like gunning down civilians...
This is how tech is going. Being able to fight wars without losing experienced gunners helps a lot.
I wonder if they will ever have personal versions for home defense?
(11:39:31) Xerxes: yeah
(11:40:22) Xerxes: well, no one wonders why there are 3000 civilian casualties from a 6 hr tank rampage though streets in iraq
(11:40:34) Xerxes: it's just so easy to kill them /...
(11:40:39) Xerxes: 50 point ;-)
(11:40:46) lisa@jabber.bulletproof.it: ewww, that is awful
(11:40:47) Xerxes: OMG HIGHSCORE
once it's decided to go to war you gotta use every way you can to win the war?! do you let people decide for you when you're going to a war that you do not support? or do you support this bloodbath! it has been proven over and over again that the nuclear iraqi threat that was the pretext of this war was bullshit. and yet you keep going over there to kill them. for what? to 'liberate' them while killing them with your guns? sure, play video games to train your skills into killing people. they're not americans, they don't matter, right?
goddamn! this is really un original... o well. where do you go to sign up for thtis thing?
Comments show an interesting, and probably accurate, cross section of public opinion. A lot of heat, very little light.
If, in a war zone, a child approaches your position with a grenade you are morally obligated to shoot them because of the commitment you have made to defend your own personnel.
With a "free rifle" or other remote setup you have the luxury of firing at the ground near someone approaching you. Which action would you rather have to spend the rest of your life going 'round and 'round in the back of your head?
If you really just want to wipe out your enemies, you wouldn't bother with high tech stuff, you could just bomb the enemy off the face of the earth.
That's neat. When I was back in school, my friend Ender played with something like that.
I can just see something like todays tech call centers, outsourced to India, with hundreds of "Mikes" and "Barbaras" at computers with joysticks (or yes, maybe some trackballs), fighting America's wars. Good-kill to bad-kill ratios will be posted on spreadsheets for the team-leader to review, and will determine bonuses. I for one welcome our new, America Online Overlords!
This is nothing new. It is inevitable.
(deep breath)...
"Being in the Military, first and foremost I must tell all you that were being so negative to shut up. This will save American lives, the very lives that are sacrificed for you to give you the right to complain freely without threat of censorship"
Telling someone to shut up is censorship. Not everyone here is american.
"Americans have the bad habit of seeing threats everywhere and for this reason they create these machines to kill people"
The person in charge of america right now has the habit of overreacting to real threats weeks after the damage was done, then pursuing that action maniacally, and we didn't invent the gun, we just make it better.
"Nothing like a "good" war to test new tech, life has no value in it. Wake up"
I agree completely with the first half and am saddened to see yet another human who can't look into the eyes of a stranger and see ones self. (for the second half)
"Really nice, I hope the joystick has Force Feedback capability to increase realism while shooting real people"
A gun fully aoutomatic gun mounted to the same small structure you are inside provides it's own "force feedback" (and graphic explosions onscreen)
"But I can say with some certainty that they really really liked me before they stiched accross my chest with a machine gun and then blew up my corpse with a satchel charge"
Lol, thank you.
"Spotting hints of trouble and blasting anything that moves" says the article. Excellent. After all, Iraqi's aren't American, so they don't count, right?"
There isn't really a lot of room for lawn maintenance in a warzone, if someone's there, and they're not you, chances are they're not your friend
" once it's decided to go to war you gotta use every way you can to win the war?! do you let people decide for you when you're going to a war that you do not support? or do you support this bloodbath! it has been proven over and over again that the nuclear iraqi threat that was the pretext of this war was bullshit, and yet you keep going over there to kill them. for what, to 'liberate' them while killing them with your guns? sure, play video games to train your skills into killing people, they're not americans, they don't matter, right?"
1st statement-agreed
2: That's a soldiers job, and a civilians job is to let it happen.
3:Until the population of the earth by humans is cut roughly in half, I support all bloodbaths, but would prefer euthanization.
4.agreed
5.Combatants are disguising themselves as civilians and bringing the fighting into populized areas, I hope they try to minimize civilian casualties, but if a war erupts in my town and i don't want to fight, i'll leave.
6.I think japan still makes most of "our videogames", and as i said earlier, if your at war, there's not a lot of room for huggles.
(deep breath)
"If, in a war zone, a child approaches your position with a grenade you are morally obligated to shoot them because of the commitment you have made to defend your own personnel."
Does anyone know what the geneva convention is? all wars are still fought by rules, no napalm ,(anymore) no glass weapons, etc, however i don't think iraq was at this convention because hiding behind civilians is NOT OK i don't care if little pablo wants to be a martyr, he can't come to the party, or he'll probably be killed.
" With a "free rifle" or other remote setup you have the luxury of firing at the ground near someone approaching you. Which action would you rather have to spend the rest of your life going 'round and 'round in the back of your head?"
agreed. wow, you mean that not every tom, dick, or habib will walk up to a gun that is pointing at them? what's aa "warning shot?" i've never heard of such nonsence... I recall being trained to let someone who doesn't speak your language understand the potential danger to their person by using the "universal language"... just cock your gun and the civilians usually stop walking towards you.
"If you really just want to wipe out your enemies, you wouldn't bother with high tech stuff, you could just bomb the enemy off the face of the earth"
I've heard that this is what the pres is planning if iran continues to try and develop the bomb (which is a very high tech device btw) i call that irony.
"I can just see something like todays tech call centers, outsourced to India, with hundreds of "Mikes" and "Barbaras" at computers with joysticks (or yes, maybe some trackballs), fighting America's wars. Good-kill to bad-kill ratios will be posted on spreadsheets for the team-leader to review, and will determine bonuses. I for one welcome our new, America Online Overlords!"
there were (in america) some websites that had an automated rifle near a baited game trail, i think they've all been shut down now... good.
...
-Strayclown- (Yes, i live in america, no I don't consider myself part of this society)
This would come in handy in Los Angeles traffic! I want one!
These weapons will save lives and lets face it your losing a few :(
Think of what a parent or loved one would say if they had a choice in the way their loved one went on a patrol.....on foot or behind one of those.
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